OfflineWe are planning to get new curlingstones to our club in Gothenburg, Sweden.
First I have question if anybody has expierence of this and have any good advise.
My concern is mainly the curl. We shall use this stones for competitions games and would like stones with “aggressive” curl. That is when we get most of the curl in the end. The stones we are using now curls about four feet under normal conditions.
A manufacture we are talking to says that they have a design of the running edge of the stones that give this performance and advise against any customer 'Rubbing the Running Edge' of their curling stones with abrasive materials since they will undoubtedly spoil them and incur an expensive repair. This sounds sensible. Anybody using scratched stones?
AndersL, listen to the manufacturer, don't EVER scratch your stones. If you send me your email address, I will send you a contact in Sweden that you can talk to, he is a very experienced man and will answer all your questions. There are some files on our website that will also help.
www.scottishcurlingicegroup.org
JohnMinnaar@aol.com
The best in the world scratch them. That is the way they come from the factory.
Watch the best in the world curl and they are using sanded rocks. But you better know what you are doing when you sand them or you WILL have a wreck!
I concure.
I agree. Don't sand the rocks. If a less precise edge was better, the rocks would be ground that way at the factory. It would be easy to set the lathe /grinder to cut whatever running configuration was wanted.
A lot of research and experience has gone into the design and grinding of the modern curling rock. What makes anyone think he can improve the precision by rubbing them by hand with a piece of sand paper?
Also, keep your old rocks! You may find that many curlers will prefer them. Since they already curl about the right amount they may perform better than new rocks, on your ice. Naturally aged rocks that work well are a curlers' delight.
Enjoy your new rocks and learn to curl with them. They will be different; not necessarily "better" or "worse"!
I have read the many posts over the past couple of years about "scratching" or not scratching rocks. The people who are dead against papering the rocks have either never tried it or have a rare old set of trefors that will curl uphill. I have been a head ice tech for 26 years and have worked with all kinds of rocks. I too was very nervous and hesitant when it came to the subject. I feel that if you are not willing to try anything that may improve the quality of the product we provide to our members, them maybe we are not doing our clubs justice. I worked at one club that the manager was dead against sanding rocks, but when I papered a couple of extra rocks we had at our club and the executive saw the results, they asked me to do all the rocks. To offer advice to icemakers who visit this site, I think you have to base your advice on experience, not just personal opinions. I believe in the near future, icemakers should be taught how to properly sand stones. It would eliminate many sleepless nights. I know it did for me.
Sr Tech, for someone with 26 years' experience, I find it surprising that you are advising technicians with perhaps 26 months' or even days' experience to sand their stones. I too have for many years been studying this thing and I must tell you, this is a bad idea. No-one here is saying that it shouldn't be part of the repertoire, what we are saying is leave it to the experts. My considered, perhaps inexperienced, personal opinion is here:
http://www.scottishcurlingicegroup.org/reports/FrictionVsTemperature.pdf
For the record, there are no rocks in curling anymore, only stones. I do not make the rules, the governing body does. Like sanding, many things have been invented across the pond that do not exactly agree with everyone else. If you at any time wish to imply that anyone who hasn't walked the same ice pad as you for 26 years necessarily knows less than you, I fear we are all in danger of being inferior to you and thereby incompetent.
Phooey to the "Governing Body"!
Rocks are made of stone, and stones are chunks of rock.
Who cares; as long as they curl! What possible difference can it make?
Phooey also to anyone who thinks he has the final answer on any of our discussions. As long as the weather differs from one place to the next, so will water, and curling ice; and the way rocky stones behave on it!
That's what makes it a game and not a hard science.
Havanicedayeh!
Arrrgh! I am getting tired of the mystical secrecy attitude of too many ice techs.
Never mind the near future! If you, Sr. Tech, or anyone out there [Cranky?] actually knows of a way to sand rocks that is both safe, and effective, please describe it NOW, HERE, IN THIS FORUM, instead of blandly recommending the process without telling anyone how to do it!
I am really hesitant to simply take a piece of "German #60 grit" and fly at it. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
Let's discuss this and see if we can learn something useful. Doesn’t sanding always remove some rock? Wouldn’t this speed up the demise of a running surface rather than actually improving anything, except in the short term?
How could I be certain that I was doing it ‘properly’?
I’m willing to learn, but I have to be certain that I will not harm the stones I have.
I'm tired of this secrecy too, but there is this thing called Plagiarism and I'm not going to take credit for something that is not my property. Nor will I pass this knowledge on without the expressed written consent of the original owner. I sometimes wonder if you actually read the other posts on topics, because there was mention of Canada Curling Stone sanding information in one post and I have seen equipment made by CCS for excactly this purpose. If the procedure is done by the manufacturer then how can it be that bad?
If a technique, using common tools, is proprietary knowledge, then we are indeed doomed to the cabalistic mystical bullshit we have all become accustomed to. And this website becomes a waste of time and little more than a gossip centre.
I have read much, but not all that has been posted on the website. Does this also disqualify me?
I have sent a request for information to Canada Curling Stone Company because it is apparent that you and your comrades don't want to share experience and knowledge; or that you really just don't know.. ... ..
Why not just ask your source if repeating his advice would be "plagarism"?
I'll trust the advice of the manufacturer.
Ian
I agree. In my 20+ years in the business I have found that a willingness to share knowledge is a fairly new thing. For years Shorty and Marcel amongst others in the icemaking upper crust were sanding stones. The fact that we knew nothing about it had more to do with these guys keeping it secret to protect there reputation and mystique. the facts are that inserts polish with use and sanding needs to become part of our maintenece not something to be feared. Cdn curling stone agrees and has become a lot more willing to do and show ice techs the skill. It isnt a replacement for good ice skills and work habits but a compliment to it. Remember Rocks curl not ice! Steve Wood
I concure
I like sandpaper too! specially the 60 grit from Germany. When do you get into the MTS center?
Have you guys seen the sand paper holder (For lack of a better term) that Icemaster has designed?
I've been making ice for 15 years and have tried everything out there to get more curl. Not much worked until Shorty paid a visit to our club with his paper and then we had lots of curl, and our members loved it. Since then I've redone our rocks whenever I, and our members, feel it's needed. We have inserts that do become polished over time and need to be roughened up to give them more curl. At first I was worried I may screw them up, but now I have the confidence to produce a little or a lot of curl when needed. There was a lot of secrecy about this topic in the past but now it seems all of the icemakers in my area are more open about the fact and all of them do whatever is necessary, and they have been doing it for a while. Canada Curling Stone have been great to offer advice as to proper paper and techniques for sanding and share that info with whoever would like to have it. Ice Master have a 'paper holder' for icemakers. This tells me the leaders in the industry are trying to get the information into the hands of us ice guys(and girls), and for good reason. Curlers want CURL and we have to give it to them. A little carefull sanding will make your rocks curl more and that will make your curlers happy and that is what we as icemakers have to always strive for. It's time to get this knowledge into the courses that train icemakers so the ability to produce curl is there for us all to share. As previously stated 'Ice doesn't curl, ROCKS curl". Help them if you have to. Your members will thank you for that.
Personally, I think that sanding your stones is a band aid with consequences down the road. Traveling ice tech's may not be too concerened with the longevity or consistency of your stones after they leave your club. In the grand picture of life expectancy and consistency of your granite, you have to deal with your environment out on the ice field first and formost.
What the hell are "travelling ice techs"?
WOW. What part of sanding do you not get. What do you think the last thing the manufactor does before the stones are ready? That's right he sands the running edge. Whether you use 60,80 or 120 on a hard surface or soft you are creating a more aggressive running edge. Some of these variables will control how much curl you get as well as late finish or a more lazy curl. As I stated before the ice has to be number 1 but trust me the more you try and make people believe that touching the stones is wrong and will cause long term damage, the more naive you look. That sound you hear is the laughter of the "top guys" thinking of you beating your head against a wall. Think about it, how many of us came back from level 1 ice courses and did everything we were told and were blessed with 1 foot of curl. The "hold back" factor in our business is very common. Smooth stones on flat ice WILL NOT curl very much. SW
Your contempt is impressive. If you know the technique, and have the experience to avoid the pitfalls, let's hear it.
You confuse a lack of knowledge and confidence for naivete.
If people come back from Level 1 ice making courses, or even advanced icemaking courses and still don't know how or whether to sand rocks, couldn't it be that they weren't instructed? I know I wasn't.
Caution in the face of ignorance is a good thing.
If the "Top Guys" are actually laughing at the rest of us there is no hope of ever learning anything, is there?
If you know something, share it. [Or is it really a trade secret?]
Please don't demean those who ask for information or express doubts.
half of you guys are way out to lunch. or maybe they still use corn at your rink or something. anyway, this is the year 2008. and the water we use is very very hard. and what happens when you rub something over and over and over and.... um maybe it gets smooth . so, if you have the tools to do so "properly" why wouldn,t you do it. what woulda happened if nobody tried anything new to keep up with the progression of the sport, anybody?... anyway i think i made my point but if not, go ahead and do what you will and i hope you have good luck
You may have a shapening steel that came with a set of knives, but without knowing how to actually use it, you could do more harm to the blade than good. In other words, just having the tool doesn't mean you will do it correctly. Unfortunately curling stones are a little too valuable for many folks to "experiment" with in a fairly irreversible manner, so it should be easy to understand why many of them would be hesitant to do this without a solid understanding of the technique and the risks/drawbacks.
The other problem is that a lot of people don't want to reinvent the wheel. If someone has already put in the time/effort/risk to figure out a way to get good, consistent, repeatable results it's silly for everyone else to repeat the same process. As far as I know icemaking is not yet a lucrative enough industry to justify being secretive about new ideas and techniques. If someone was making millions with their patented sanding process I could understand the secrecy a little, but it doesn't seem that's the case so I don't really get it.
call canada curling stone or icemaster or al thompson. buy the equipment and ask for instructions. when and if you get the paper holder and are still unsure make another post and ask. if you can't get the paper holder i'll sell you one for $150. or i'll do your rocks for you if you'd like. do you have an effective way to match your stones on a regular bassis.
I do not know who the person who posted above is but it sounds like he/she knows whats going on.How many tecs know how to do the deed is the question ,i agree unless you have been shown properly you will do more harm than good.I will also say a stone that has naturally matured and curls 3 feet should never be touched.If you want to wait for stones to mature i hope you live till your 1000 as you will never see it happen.I will also say more attention to the shape of the ice is very important it will lead to less work on the stones
Call ccs or thompson, they can put you in touch with someone in your area that can do the stones. My point here is to understand that it (sanding stones) is part of the process. Demand information of the people in the know. Ask at seminars, ask the senior ice techs when you see them and ask the manufactors. If it wasn't common then a sanding jig wouldn't be available. It's not "contempt" its frustration at people (from all over) who seem unable to look at another opinion and bandy about comments and advice like its gospel. Our trade is fluid, always changing and part of that change is pushing for information. I believe its(sanding) done everywhere and I find it hard to believe that events in Europe are any different. Or maybe those secretive Canadian icemakers who go to do the ice for oversees events don't share that part of the preparation. HAHA SW
"Our trade is fluid, always changing and part of that change is pushing for information. I believe its(sanding) done everywhere and I find it hard to believe that events in Europe are any different."
Guys, this thing is going around in circles. At the beginning Anders asked for advice/opinions, I told him not to sand his stones, the reasons have gradually become clear. In Scotland too we have tried to pin this down with little success, there are people who know but don't talk, there are people who don't know and mess up their stones, there are many people who will not touch their running bands with sandpaper. All I could find on the subject is in the report http://www.scottishcurlingicegroup.org/reports/FrictionVsTemperature.pdf and my advice remains the same: don't go there unless you have very good reason (as in desperate) and you have someone who knows what he is doing. Personally, I don't sand stones because I don't need to, it doesn't last and it could easily ruin the stones. Many of you obviously disagree, so instead of slagging, write your own reports and make them available so everyone can learn. If you don't, I have to assume you're having a go for the hell of it and don't really know what you're talking about. Tempers don't solve problems.
Where I grew up (the Kalahari Desert in South Africa) there was a thing they called Forty Fever. That's how hot it usually was, 40C, and these big strong guys went out in the desert to fix something and came back with a big smile of success -- they'd forgotten half the tools and materials and had to use their brains to fix it, which they did, and suddenly they know it all. Meanwhile, a week later I would have to go out again and fix the thing properly, hundreds of miles from nowhere, with the right tools and materials, and it would stay fixed for many years. When the big guys asked us how we did it, we just said "leave the Forty Fever behind".
Maybe there's a Forty Fever in Canada too. A vast country, long distances, manufacturers too far away, survival gets important and who cares, us long as it works. Well, -40C is about as cold as -40F, so it's as Forty as you're going to get. Leave the Forty Fever behind, and start doing the thing properly. This is not about what works or doesn't work, this is about learning how to do things properly. It might work for someone in desperate need, but who says it's the right way, so let's learn some more.
Even Montie agrees, and his advice sounds exactly like the advice Shorty gave me some ten years ago.....
John
To suggest that everyone in the know should post their own reports is, in my opinion, not the best thing to do.
I generally do not like to share information with someone I don't know because.... I don't know him. There have been non ice technicians coming onto the site asking information, and its basically so they can then tell their board or ice technician he is doing it wrong. They want to use it as ammunition against their Ice Tech.
I do agree that a visit from Mr. Sandpaper is not a solution to bad ice. In my opinion, there are very few, and I mean VERY FEW ice technicians who know how to scrape and pebble properly. There are also other concerns that need to be addressed before the stones get the blame. Proper temperature controls are not in place at 95% of curling clubs and it is a problem. There are very few refrigeration companies that understand the "need for control" in the curling industry. Find a company that does, ASAP!(i did)Sanding your stones when your ice goes flat in the fourth end is going to cause a revolt in your membership.
I think many of the "people in the know" are reluctant to share their opinions because "a little knowledge is deadly".
What needs to happen is more guys have to want to improve their skills and their product. There are too many clubs to name that you go to curl at and the runs are in the same spot every year, the pebble breaks down in the same end, etc.
There is a lack of education in the business, or should I say that there is a lack of education "smacking you in the face" in this business. Generally speaking, an Ice Technician only knows what his/her former bosses taught them. In my case, I wasn't really taught anything. I realize now its because they didn't really know themselves.
Ice has changed and the stereotypically ice maker/janitor hasn't followed suit. If we want to start being treated more professionally from the curling world, we have to start acting more professional. If someone has better ice than you......find out why!!
I've taken upon myself to talk to several Ice Technicians over the past 5-6 years and it has only paid off for myself and my ice. I regularly talk on the phone with 4 or 5 ice technicians in my area and abound both asking and giving advice.
The governing bodies aren't demanding better product and too many Ice Tech's are just content with what they have. NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK!!!!!!!! I said this on here 3 years ago and hardly any posts are on here. Then out of the blue....Joe Blow (no disrespect meant what-so-ever to whoever started this thread) wants information on how to sand rocks. No spoon feeding here kids!!!
We need an Association that is seperate from the governing bodies to help bring our industry into the 21st century. Improving curling ice worldwide so that club curlers can make the shots they see on television is what is needed to take curling to the next level. But it all starts with each individual Ice technician and his/her desire to improve their playing conditions. Use other Ice Technicians who are "in the know" and who are repected in your area to write letters to your board to help getting better equipment. YOU GOTTA WANT IT!!!!!
Sorry for going off on a tangent but I'm very passionate about curling ice and the game itself. I get quite disgusted playing on some of the ice that ive played on and its because the Ice Tech doesn't really care to make it better.
If we want to be treated more professionally($$$$ included).....start acting it!!!
Once you learn how to make good curling ice........then give Mr. Sandpaper a call, you'll be happy to meet him.
(ok....let me have it)
Happy Scraping!!!!!
Ice Sculpture, I give you ten out of ten for that one. You are clearly finding the same there that we find here: ignorance, who cares, never mind the important basics. You've said it very well, I applaud you.
Maybe you're right, reports are not always a bright idea. May I assure you all that the reports I publish on the web are very carefully researched, discussed, cross checked and read by experts (who will very soon send me an email if I have it wrong). I'm not going to be right all the time, but I will try my best to be correct within the knowledge available. So if anyone can say the same, try me with your own information or keep finding fault with mine. If just one guy learns just one thing from it, fine!
NETWORK! I too meet/phone my colleagues regularly. It works.
Dude you ROCK, I mean stone or whatever the term is suppose to be. Seriously I couldn't agree more. More communication is a good thing as long as we truly talk and allow everyone to give opinions and not be afraid of being preached to. Also I like to know if icemaking is an art or a science? SW
Ice making is an art once you understand the science.
(sorry this is off thread topic)
Started at a new club this season and was told it "always rains" in the rink in fall and spring. It was not uncommon to see a hundred cups and pails catching the drips.
After removing a ceiling tile (tiled sub ceiling) and realizing that over half of the 32 ceiling vents in peak of the roof were open I understood why they have been unsuccessfully dehumidifying Toronto.
Spray foamed the vents, took a temperature and humidity reading in the air space above the sub ceiling, puched in the numbers into a dewpoint calculator found on the internet (thanks Don Powell) and calculated that the airspace in the rink had to be above 52F to get above the dewpoint. Warmed up the airspace.....no more dripping.
Scraping and pebbling (and rock scratching,lol)is the art.....everything else is science.
Cheers
Ice Sculpture,
I can see your point of view, why you are hesitant to give advice to unknown Ice Techs (who might not even be ice techs), but I kinda DO use this site as part of my networking. Not everyone is in a hotbed of curling with a bunch of good ice-makers around the corner. I'm a volunteer ice-maker still learning to make ice at a club in New Jersey. The next nearest ice-maker is more than two hours away. And I can only get to three, total, within 5 hours, and they're all volunteers. So, a lot of times I'm stuck with trial and error, when I know that someone out there (who does this more and maybe for a living) already has the answers.
As long as I'm posting, any knowledgeable types want to come down to my club and give me some tips? I'll put you up and pay your team entry in our end of the year spiel/party, if you can figure out a way for me to keep quality ice the first weekend of April in an improperly insulated shed with no air temperature controls and an outside temperature somewhere in the high 70s F. Fortunately, it's such a good party that people think the ice is "fun" at this event.
Aaron
"Curling in a two-sheet club is great, as long as you stay off the outside sheets."
I agree we definately need an association for ice techs. I'm in greenskeeping as well as ice making and we have provincial and national associations that for most jobs you are required by the club to be a part of. The seminars, meetings, trade shows and golf events are great for networking and this could only improve the quality of ice everywhere if we had something similar.
Nice to hear people being supportive and friendly.
However we have not really answered AndersL's question.
TO SCRATCH OR NOT TO SCRATCH?
From what I have read here it appears that the prudent advice is not to scratch /sand until all other factors have been dealt with. A set of new stones is too valuable an asset to go messing around with. First make sure the ice and the environment are all as they should be. If those rocky stones still won't curl, get someone who actually knows what he's doing to do it for you, and to teach you how to do it properly. If the stones were finished by sanding at the factory I doubt that anyone else is going to be able to improve on their condition or performance by attacking them with a sheet of #60 grit; German or otherwise.
An association of Ice Techs is a fine idea, but if we were to use this forum supportively instead of hacking away at each other, many of these problems could be addressed. I agree that giving advice is only as good as the giver's qualifications, or supporting evidence; and that feeding an internal dispute within a club is to be avoided. Like Jr. Asst Ice Boy, I live and work in a place where curling rinks are far apart, even though almost every town has one. There are less than ten rinks strung out over a stretch of highway 750 km long. In practical terms we only get to see the 2 or 3 other rinks that are within a couple of hundred km of home. Most of these are maintained by volunteer techs with little formal training. We are all flying by the seats of our pants. We need to be able to communicate as we are doing here through this kind of Internet forum.
Anyone giving advice on how to perform a given technique should also give his qualifications. Any advice should be backed by references and demonstrable proof of the effectiveness of the technique. The argument that "It works for me" just won't cut it any more because what works in one place will not necessarily work somewhere else.
Ice Sculpture, You're right.. ... .. an art is the skillful application of a scientific principle.
Ice is nice, eh!
It appears you are having trouble understanding english,I will try to be more to the point this time as I believe we did answer the asked question. Sand the damb things allready !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or drag them through a parking whatever you prefer.
That one speaks for itself.
Good night, Montie, and may your club preserve its stones.
{Isn't the royal "We" usually capitalized?}
Hi Montie - Following your advice, I built a steel frame large enough to hold both sets of rocks. I hitched it to the back of my car and mashed the pedal. After the smoke cleared I determined that my Civic cannot tow ~1500 lb of stone and metal and now my front tires are quite bald.
Do you think sanding my tires would help restore the tread?
:-D
"Any advice should be backed by references and demonstrable proof of the effectiveness of the technique. The argument that "It works for me" just won't cut it any more because what works in one place will not necessarily work somewhere else."
Ha ha.........OMG.........ha ha!
So this is now a free on-line Ice Technician University?
Buddy.....(lol)are you serious? (oops i think i soiled myself)
Call Fred Veale at Canada Curling Stone Co. 1-519-474-1338
Be ready to tell him what type of granite your stones are and what is the width of your running surface.
Ask him to send you a sanding device (rock box, i like to call it) and some sand paper. He'll probably suggest 120 grit because your new to this and it won't be too agressive(you can work your way up to 80 grit once you realize that we were right in the first place). He will tell you what to do to the stones, whether it is 1/4 turn, or a 12 o'clock push, etc. I'm sure it'll be something minor so you and your members don't freak out at first.
That will be my last spoon feeding......
Do they have a phone in your club? My club has a phone and I use it to call knowledged Ice Technicians and receive calls from other Ice Technicians asking advice or just wanting to talk shop(some of them don't even live in the same city).
Ive never come across a GOOD Ice Technician who wasnt willing to talk (Hans is a bit busy at times).
GET ON THE HORN BUDDY!!!!
416 536 8054
Roy Arndt
highparkclub.com
P.S.-That will be the last time I spoon feed you (only did it cause you made me laugh, youre a funny guy)
Fred's on vacation til mid March.
I've already contacted his office. Found him on the Internet, not here...
I'll take his word, because he will likely have something constructive to say.
I don't want anything from your spoon, certainly not now.
It's not a university, it's a symposium. Do you know the difference? Although you're partly right, there is no way to tell on the Internet who actually knows anything, unless it's referenced.
I had hoped to get good advice, I didn't anticipate the abuse!
{Guess I should've, eh. That's what icemen do; take sh!t. Just didn't anticipate it from other icemen, for asking and discussing the 'craft'.}
Later...
No time for this now. Gotta go curl on the ice I'm trying to learn how to make better. Got a brine leak that needs bailing, too. How's your rink?
No harm, no foul. Don't worry, Havanicedayea!
it was referenced by everyone on this site(take it for what its worth)
Montie is the Assistant to Hans Wuthrich (who is considered the best in the world). Montie is also a Refrigeration Specialist as in hebowns his own refrigeration business and is a mechanic. (hope that was accurate eric)
You not only want our answers but you want references and proof...... we already took the time to give you our advice and you want it to be researched too......go find out for yourself then. Everyone "in the know" learned it by taking the time to talk to people "in the know".
THanks for the references. Good to finally find out who is behind the 'handle[s]'.
Gotta go curl.
Later
Yes you were correct Roy.Yoy gave some good advise ,it is exactly what we recommend to all ice tecs,consult the manufacturer.I do not want it to seem I think the first step is sanding it should actually be the last resort.it has been going on for at least 30 years that I know of its just in the last 10 years everyone is trying it.If you have not been shown by a tec that knows his stuff do not even bother.In todays game everyone expects 4 feet of curl and 25 second ice all the time,it is not that easy to due we all work under different circumstances.The key to good ice is to be consistant from draw to draw whether it curls 3 feet or 5 feet.I am not here to bash anyone and try to help when ever I can.
im not here to bash anyone either, i have no problems talking on the phone with anyone who takes the time to call me. and to atleast put a voice to a person. but to post it on the web for everyone to read it and benefit from it.......im saving that for my book,or my university course.lol
i have two ice techs in my area excited about scraping because they've taken my verbal crash course. they're cute....phone me almost everyday now (jk D.E.)to tell me how their scrape went. its fun when you know your making it better.
cheers
Roy, OK, accepted, but let's leave the egos out of it. That gets us nowhere.
You said “it was referenced by everyone on this site (take it for what its worth)”
For once I have to agree with Glenn Albertson. These cute 'handles' or fake names cause more confusion than they're worth. When you don't know the qualifications of who is speaking there is no way to separate opinion from valid advice. Unfortunately the name ‘Ice Sculpture’ or ‘Montie’ or ‘Jock’, or ‘Old Cranky’ or whatever tells us nothing to inspire confidence in the comments made.
John Minnaar may not have the last word on anything, but at least he let’s us know where he’s coming from and backs up what he says with research, and documents his sources. He is also one of the few who doesn’t use a ‘userid’.
I do call people who I think may have good advice to give, but I can’t always figure out who to call. Until your last post I would have had no way to know where to call even if I wanted to talk to you… besides, I thought this forum was supposed to be a means of sharing knowledge.
It also would be nice if people who 'know' would explain what they mean instead of ridiculing people when they offer opinions or advocate caution when they don't know for sure what is right. My point was just that, if you don't know how to sand properly, you're better off doing nothing rather than jumping in and possibly wrecking a set of good rocks.
If you keep your knowledge to your self you help no one. If you really know and are going to write a book, hurry up and get it into print!
Advice is only as good as the confidence one has in the source.
Do you have a problem with my suggestion that: “…the prudent advice is not to scratch /sand until all other factors have been dealt with.”?
On one hand ‘Montie’ /Eric says I should “Sand the damb things allready !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or drag them through a parking whatever you prefer.” And then he says: “consult the manufacturer. I do not want it to seem I think the first step is sanding it should actually be the last resort.” …”If you have not been shown by a tec that knows his stuff do not even bother.” If the advice of the manufacturer is to be followed, which makes sense, just say so, and provide the links [which you finally did. Thanks].
If you’re right, and you may well be, it does me no good to be told to do something to my club’s major asset without being taught how to do it properly, and what needs to be done first, [fix the ice etc.] I am more concerned to ‘do no harm’ than I am with the idea that I should do something blindly because someone with a fake name says I should.
Is there a manual? There may be, written by the manufacturer, or there may not. How does one find this out unless he asks?
I have a thick skin and a desire to learn, [essential qualities in an ice tech] but I can’t keep listening to the people who ‘know’ put down those who seek advice or answers.. … ..
P.S. What’s wrong with being funny? It helps me put up with the rest of you … LOL.
Ian
Have been following this thread with great interest. My question is does sanding help speed or curl. Our rocks have plenty of curl but lack a little speed. never get much above 23 seconds (hog to stop at tee). The building and plant are new so environment is good, heaters on ice, steady humidity, steady air temp and ice temp. Good DI water.
I am not asking if they should be sanded but merely if sanding will only increase the speed without affecting the curl. Running surfaces on the rocks are in the 4mm range and I would like to have 5mm as I have been told that would be faster.
Thanks in advance,
and since we are naming names
Jeff (volunteer head ice man for 3 years)
absolutely the running edge being wider will give you more speed.5.6 mm is a good starting point .regards montie
4mm is quite narrow for running surfaces, making your surfaces wider would certainly increase speed.
The problem is, it will take you weeks to manually widen all your running surfaces a whole millimetre and a half with sandpaper. Something like that would require getting your running surfaces reground.
And it's basically impossible to hit the stones with sandpaper and not affect the curl... Depending what you do to them they can curl huge, or just a hair more than what you already have. It all depends what grit you use, what pattern, etc...
You'd be best off contacting Fred Veale about this, he's the expert when it comes to stones.
Disclaimer: I am a competitive player and definitley NOT an icemaker. I've browsed this thread and enjoyed the read. It is clear to me that the "vote" is still out on "papering" as a standard practice.
Having said that, I have some observations regarding "papering".
Having played with both natural and papered stones I have one very logical question for all of you Ice Geeks (Sorry, it's an affectionate term. I am a Computer guy and you guys are the only ones who even come close to our Geekyness with all of your gadgets and gizmos to give us that great ice!)
Anyway, my simple question is: Is it not possible to modify the ice to get the same curl you get by papering the stones?
I am assuming that the answer will be "Not in all cases". If that is so, maybe defining the exact conditions under which someone should consider papering might be a beneficial discussion here? I don't think that would be giving away any trade secrets or require anyone to give up year's worth of research on a free blog. I expect the smart-ass answer will be "Rocks aint curlin'". What I am looking for is a little more technical answer involving type of granite, inserts or not, age of current running surface, water condition, size of club, base temps and humidity, etc. Essentially the "If you're not getting curl under these condtions, you might want to try papering." guide.
Just a thought.
My simple answer would be this. To produce speeds and curl the way you competitive guys want requires ice temps that are high. This will in most cases gets more swing and faster times for a short period of ends. Then the will go flat, hand and knee marks will occur and you guys will have something else to bitch about. One question, How do you know when your playing with papered stones or not?SW
What I am looking for is a little more technical answer involving type of granite, inserts or not, age of current running surface, water condition, size of club, base temps and humidity, etc. Essentially the "If you're not getting curl under these condtions, you might want to try papering." guide.
Yes, I think that is what we're all looking for! I believe all the available knowledge is already in the report, but you never know who else might have something to contribute.....
http://www.scottishcurlingicegroup.org/reports/FrictionVsTemperature.pdf
Thanks John.
To answer your question woodrow, it's been my job on most teams to buddy up with the ice-man and get as much knowledge as I can from them. So most times I'm relying his word. Frankly, I think that it's not something that's being done on a regular basis here in the U.S. but it is showing up here and there at clubs.
One other question about the topic: Just an observation here. Is it just me or do recently papered stones exhibit more late finish than others? It just seems that we're seeing more really hard break at or beyond the hog line on the playing end than ever before. Great to watch and sometimes great to play on IF you figure out that break point and you have excellent sweepers that can really judge weight.
Thanks
Late curl is a function of the surface that the paper is on. Not that it matters but papered stones (rocks) are more common than you think. If you are getting lots of curl then the rocks have probably been done unless they are older non inserts. Also due to the secrecy of the topic as well as reputation protection mentioned earlier I wouldn't assume that all icemakers are going to readily admit to scratching the stones. SW
Just for interest, one of the main reasons why we are looking into this whole business of friction vs temperature is the curve or parabola of the stone's trajectory. What is happening is that top players curl on arena ice, usually with a low IST, and to get the stones to curl they are sanded. Now all curlers want curl, and cold venues are going down the same road. The trouble is, these are curling halls and not arenas and the parameters are very different, so the stones dive at the finish. Curlers get used to it and many say they love it, but it isn't very controllable over the weeks and months as the sanding wears smooth. Take away the dive and the curlers complain, so out comes the paper again.
With naturally matured stones control is more even and so is the parabola, giving a gentle curl of four foot that makes for a very different game altogether -- precision is required from shot to shot, rather than playing the less predictable lines of dive. The problem is that not everyone can control or manipulate their parameters and they're left with little option but to sand the stones, which is what the whole discussion here is all about!
John: Here is some technical info for you. My IST is ranges from 23.9 tp 24.1 Air temp at 4ft high is 38 to 41 F. RH of 55 to 60%. The rocks or stones were new to start the 2001/02 season. When they first were put on the ice there was 4' to 4.5' of curl. By the end of the season it was down to 2' to 2.5' They stayed this way until I took over as head Ice Tech to start the 03/04 season. After taking 4 months to get approval to have the rocks sanded I had Fred from C.C.S. come and redo the rocks. While he was there I asked how long it would take for them to mature. He said that there was no answer to that question because of the way most ice makers kept the ice so much cleaner then it was 30 years ago and the use of D.I. water. Now I am know around out club as the guy who put the curl back in the Burlington Curling Club and not he Burlington Straight Club. Fred also told me that by following the instrutions that come with the "magic box" as I like to call it I will not hurt or ruin the rocks. Shorty once told me he has been sanding rocks since 1974. We all know how great of a ice maker Shorty was.
I will also state as others have tried to get across and that is if you do not know how to sand the rocks get someone to show you. Don't try to do it from what is being said on this thread. You also have to keep your ice in good condition and shape including how you pebble and what temps you use.
Very well said.right on the money .
By your stats, which are fine, your ice and air are both colder than I would run at. Fact is, if you can't change them you're stuck and have to sand a bit. This is what this whole thing is about. Fred makes a very good point about the cleanliness and DI water, both these will have an effect too.
What Sanded Ice says below is a problem, but the real problem is knowledge, or lack of knowledge. Ice techs in colder areas must not think I am against sanding as such, I believe we all agree that you don't go there unless you know what you're doing, and better still leave it to the experts. I do however also believe that, in the longer term, curling rinks will be built and equipped better so that temperature becomes the method of control and not sanding. It is easier, safer and better for the stones.
What Fatpad says is also a good idea, but not always easy to do. If you can test your stones in other places, do it, because you WILL learn something.
Lots of great information, only problem, there are some board members that are coming on here and taking this back to the club and using it against some of the ice tech's.
That's the response I am getting from some ice tech's in my neck of the woods. Do I think this is right, no. only problem is that it is a free world and anyone can speak or sand stones, I guess................most times they screw up both :>
I was just thinking tonight at league... If you think your stones run straight, why not take a few stones to another club that curls and see if they curl there... And if they curl there, then you know it is your ice that is the problem.
I have to agree with john with get all things right before you even consider re-profiling your rocks.
There has been this agruement about sanding rocks and I would like to hear from you people. Should it be a board decision or an ice tech decision???
Two sides to this coin, some will say a board decision as it is an easy way out for the ice tech and the ice tech might only be there for a few years and be gone. Same goes for board members, they make rash decisions and some only stay on the board for say two years then resign or leave. I know some will lean oneway and I would like to see what you all have to say. I know i have a hard time with this one as I have been asked over the years which way it should be.
Two years ago(or so) i emailed mike potter and asked if there was anyway to stop the annonymus posters. He then made it so you had to sign in. Either we pay him to set up a Ice Techs forum where only registered humans can participate or accept it as is.
I had the running bands at my new club widened this season (Fred Veale, Canada Curling Stone) from 5.1 mm to 6mm. 25 second ice is now accertainable. Have new stones coming next season : ).
SPEED-The width of the running band, which tranlates into pounds per square inch. The wider the band=less ponds per square inch. Basically the rock is lighter and has less drag.
Curl-the texture of the running band.
I believe that the wider the running band, the quicker it will polish off (maybe wrong) and will need to be "scratched" more often.
(blue hone rocks)I now sand my running surfaces about every 5-6 weeks. Once i see that hard finish at the end disappear its time to do them again.
I dont want to sand them once aggressively at the start of the year, have them curl 6 feet down to 3 feet by cristmas and do them again.
I want 4 feet of curl from the first day to the last.....so a little scratching (i.e. quarter turn) keeps it going.
How many times to you think they sand stones for 1 Brier(or last years anyways)? (the answer isn't "one")
cheers
Actually this thread made me consider putting up a dedicated collaborative ice tech site. Not that I think Mike Potter is doing a bad job or anything, just that you could have a lot of ice tech-specific features like a wiki, dedicated message board, perhaps some sort of social vetting/web of trust...
I can't decide if there would be much interest, though.
I can setup something like that - seems like some people are saying that this forum should be for registered members only.
I don't mind setting something up - just tell me what you'd like to have and I'll see if I want to work on it.
(Or, if you'd rather take "ownership" of this section of InTheHack, we can arrange that to.)
Email me at mike@inthehack.com with ideas.
Mike
Please don't restrict access to the site.
The forum needs to be 'open' so that people who are interested in becoming ice techs, but wouldn't register unless they were, will be still able to learn from the experience of the active ice tech community.
If non-icetechs want to debate with their executives or their ice techs so much the better! Open discussion can only hurt those who consider certain bits of knowledge or original techniques to be their proprietary secrets and those people won't tell us anything anyway.. ... ..
Most of us came to the site out of curiosity and we need to encourage more people to learn about icemaking so that there will be better trained ice techs for the future. It also doesn't hurt when curlers learn something about how ice is maintained, and why.
If the forum were resrticted, it would make the 'cabal' problem that much worse. The 'Secret Society of Self Proclaimed Experts' would continue to keep the knowledge of what makes good ice a deep dark trade secret; which is no help to any of the rest of us. Besides, who would judge who was qualified to register?
I suggest that people stop using pseudonyms and come clean about their qualifications. That way we would be better able to distinguish between experience and opinion... Nothing wrong with either. It would just be more productive if one knew who was writing what.
Havanicedayea, Ian
Hi, I have been reading this thread with great interest. I think that the sanding of the running surface will become as common as turn the handle on the stone every year back in the day of the back swing deleivery. Back in the day when 21 second ice was acceptable, we had very little worry about the rocks. As we understand more about improving curling ice I feel that the sanding of rocks is just the next step in the process.
I have been an Ice tech/building operator for over 13 years at my club and not until recently has sanding stones become such an issue. Until a couple weeks ago if you asked me I would have said I absolutely I would not sand stones. It is easy for me to say that when my rocks curl 2 to 3 feet no matter what I do to the ice. I have played at High Park earlier this year and was amazed by the curl. I told Roy that it was the best sheet I had ever played on 5ft consistent curl and 3.95 splits all over the sheet. When he told me he sanded I was amazed and embarrased that I thought stones could do that on their own. The Ice was also run very well to produce those results.
When I saw those results and a couple other clubs that have been known to have straight conditions all of a sudden have three feet of curl or more and all the best Ice techs in the world are doing it why wouldn't you.
Having said that I'm not comfortable enough to experiment with something like that at my club until I know exactly what I'm doing.
We still have Raw water would that effect how the stones behave. Do the impurities in the pebble help to produce curl or am I mistaken? We have